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more skilled workers. But they're also caught in their inability to share. From what I can see, they're operating on the assumption that if they train blacks to any great extent, that'll be an even greater threat to them. That's their problem. They certainly don't have enough whites to sustain the highly developed, industrial, technological economy, do you follow me? Most of their blacks-- I don't know if it's most of them-- in the past the blacks in labor did not need to be trained. In the present and the future it seems to me they will require trained and skilled labor. But they're caught in doing without educated blacks.

Now of course, the IBM C.E.O. suggests that they have training programs.

But they didn't tell what percentage.

What did you observe of the Jewish factor in South Africa? And I'm thinking not just of persons of Jewish descent who are in the government, but also the government's relation with Israel, and what Israel supplies to the South African government.

I observed that the blacks in South Africa were fully aware of this. They were aware of it without it appearing to me to be associated with anti-Semitism. It was sort of accepted. The blacks in South Africa seem to me to be very realistic