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services component of the budget in terms of the budget as a whole, and the deficits and whatnot. He doesn't seem, from what I gather (and I certainly haven't talked with him, and haven't made any extensive study; I've just read occasional things in the newspapers)--he seems pretty hard-nosed about the need for a realistic budget. Which is beyond color.

Let me bring up the name of A. Philip Randolph, in case I have not with you before. Within the labor movement, A. Philip Randolph was the only black who--certainly through his lifetime--ever got on the board of the AFL-CIO. Did you know A. Philip Randolph personally?

Very well. Tremendous respect for him. I had tremendous respect and admiration for him.

Can you recall, illustratively, any particular issues that you had discussions about?

I recall Phil Randolph's attempt to bring together Malcolm X, Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young--because he thought that it was important that, in spite of differences, these men get to know and understand each other. I don't think he succeeded, because the more conservative leaders of the time. Roy and Whitney, did not want to become tarnished. Randolph was not concerned with matters like that. He had, to me, a larger vision. We would talk about it in his office on 125th Street. I recall also, we were riding down to Washington on