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we call it the Fifth Estate?

Yes. And I was thinking of the Executive Branch and the Legislature and the Judicial and then-- now the Judiciary, the courts, can rule on-- if any citizen feels that a decision of the Commissioner or the Regents is arbitrary or irrelevant, they can take it to court and the courts will have the final say. Generally the courts have always ruled on the side of the Regents.

So the check and balance there then is the Regents versus the courts?

No, the courts-- and I think rightly so in a democracy-- should have the final say. The courts have the final say in terms of the other branches. Or should. Until this administration gets around to modifying it. (TAPE INTERRUPTION)

This is a continuation of the interview with Dr. Kenneth B. Clark on May 29, 1985.

Dr. Clark, before the tape ran out, I was asking you about-- I want to bring up this question about your comment on Governors-- generally have not liked this independence on the Board of Regents. More specifically, how did you perceive Governor Nelson Rockefeller's attitude towards the independence of the Board? Specifically, and, of course, more generally.