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Well, he didn't like the independence of the Board. But what I liked about Nelson Rockefeller is that he had a sense of humor about it. He would try to influence us by hints and wisecracks and things of that sort. But I always had the feeling he knew that he was not going to have that much impact, unless the issue was one that we could agree on.

My personal feeling is that Nelson Rockefeller respected the Board at that time, and I used to say to him, whenever I talked with him personally, “You know, the independence of the Regents is a terrific asset to you. Actually, you can blame anything you want on us.” And he'd laugh.

Malcolm Wilson was to me-- and he didn't last very long-- the st positive Governor in terms of his relationship with the Board. He was the only Governor who ever came over and visited with us in the Regents' room. The others, we went to the mansion or to the office in New York to talk with. I wish that he had been elected. He served out the last part of--

He was seated after Rockefeller's resignation and was not elected in his own right?

That's right. [Hugh] Carey saw it different. I had a feeling that Carey couldn't have cared less.

[Mario] Cuomo-- my personal impression of Cuomo is that he is messianic, and he really works to control everything and everybody. all regulatory agencies and--