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Coming back to the Rockefeller era, wasn't it during that period that the State University was expanded? Actually in a large part from fragmented campuses to larger campuses under an umbrella?

To a State University system.

Yes. Were the Regents quite involved in that? At least in a conferring sense?

A conferring sense, but that was also a period of tension, because it was clear that Rockefeller wanted the State University system to be really independent from the Regents.

If you couldn't get it one way, you'd get it another way.

[Laughter]

We went to court. [ ] Fleischman, who's a member of their Board, took it to court and the Regents won. I think the relationship between the Regents and the State University system is better now than it has been in a long time. I think Cliff [Clifford] Wharton is a diplomat. His father was, of course, one of the first black Foreign Service officers in the United States State Department, and Cliff is quite a diplomat.

Didn't they bring him up from-- was it Pennsylvania?