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No. Michigan. Michigan State University. And I am convinced that it was Rockefeller who was largely responsible for that, and I think it was an excellent move. In fact, it was Rockefeller who first told me that Cliff was going to be Chancellor.

Although Rockefeller may have, in his ideal world, liked more control over the Regents and the whole school system, did you ever have any doubts that he was deeply committed to the cause of education?

Oh, I have no doubts at all. I liked him very much. Very, very much. And I think deep down he really respected the independence of the Regents. I really do. And maybe not so deep down.

To flip the coin there. Could he possibly have been testing atall? Or did he have this kind of an approach, as some other politicians do?

No, no, no. No, Rockefeller was-- I remember once, in hisfirst term as Governor, when he was trying to test the waters for the Presidency--

He definitely tested them in 1960.

Really? That was that early?

Let me correct that. He began testing in 1959, and if I'm