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my perspective of these problems. Andrew Brimmer is a distinguished economist. He is someone who is widely admired and rightly so, and here I am, no economist, an ordinary psychologist, observer, and here I am presumptuously saying, “What does he really mean by this?” Unless there are things that he has said in arriving at this conclusion that have been left out. Is he saying that in order for blacks to become effective entrepreneurs they must have the same opportunities for obtaining the requirements for this as whites? If he is saying that then--[pauses]--what I said was unnecessary. I'm trying to say to you that there's something about my views and perspectives now that are bothering me in that they seem so old fashionedly inconsistent with contemporary--from my perspective--simplistic explanations of the ongoing problems of discrimination, racial discrimination.

Incidentally, could there be an analog here? I'm now thinking back to Herbert Hoover and the Depression. Herbert Hoover was a self-made man apparently, but did not grasp the dimensions of the Depression, what it was doing to--whatever the employment figure was. Twenty-five to forty percent, I guess, depending on whose statistics you believe. Is it likely that certain highly successful blacks such as a Dr. Brimmer might lack this grasp of how it really is in the ghetto and the ghettoized--?

I don't know. You see, for example, I have not had any extended discussions with Brimmer. I've not had any, and I don't want to put him in the same category because I think there's quite a