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started showing greater friendship with the P.L.O. I'm not talking about diplomats now. Bayard Rustin wrote a column that said this should not happen. They are not our natural allies, that the P.L.O. are terrorists, and terrorists are not natural allies of blacks. I may be over generalizing what he said but I think that was his essential point of view. You feel that Bayard Rustin made a contribution by writing that?

No, I think Bayard Rustin, that was his point of view, position. Certainly, blacks who've made contacts with the P.L.O.--I'm not talking about Andy--

No--yes.

--were doing so in terms of their point of view. I think that it is clear that representatives of the Palestinian people will have to be involved in any positive resolution of the ongoing Middle East crisis.

This is really a footnote question, but it's born of something I learned some years ago. I do not know whether you knew or knew of Fred Lazarus, Jr. who built the Federated department store group. After he had gained considerable business prominence he made a visit to Israel and suggested to the government they should end these refugee camps--Palestinians that they had--I don't know whether this was a term he used that they had a festering sore there--that they should do it or there would be future troubles. He, of course, is