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I want to come to another program which I believe also was initiated under the Great Society, Lyndon Johnson. That's the “support a small business”. I don't know that I've asked you to what extent that you and your consultancy work here have gotten involved with the Small Business [Administration], especially in so far as it was supposed to benefit minorities.

We've gotten involved more in terms of paper than in terms of any substantive support and help. I don't whether we are peculiar.

By paper, reports it's [?]?

Well, we give correspondence. There's someone who is responsible--my son was the one who had that responsibility. But we have never gotten any financial benefits from the Small Business Administration. I think we might have gotten one or two contracts through them.

I was also thinking whether you were used in a consultative capacity to advise on the channeling of these funds to other businesses?

No, no. We never had a direct contact with the SBA [Small Business Administration]. Our experience with government agencies, federal government agencies, and our work has been not particularly beneficial.