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findings and were struck by what we were seeing, in terms of the internalization of a negative self-image in black children -- that something had to be done.

I remember Otto Kleinberg, when I'd come back from my field trips, in doing this research, I talked with him and Mamie about it, and Otto at once said to me, “Kenneth, what are you going to do to help these children?”

I said, “I don't know.”

He said, “You know, I think we have a responsibility, not just to get the facts, and findings, but these facts are disturbing, and we ought to do something about it.”

Well, obviously Mamie was feeling this very strongly too. I was trying to put it out of my mind, you know. I was trying to say, my role was to get the facts. I was not a clinician. I couldn't help a child who ran out of the testing room crying when I asked this child to identify with a doll that he or she had described, had ascribed negative characteristics to. Sometimes I would go and get the child and put my arms around him, but I knew that that wasn't really dealing with the basic problem.

So Mamie got her PhD in 1943, and she had problems in getting a job in which she would be respected as a trained psychologist. She was black and she was female. I remember, she was interviewed for a job with CBS, and was turned down -- for no other reason, other than the fact/that she was a female black, at that time. That was ‘43, ‘44.

We had two children. She worked a couple of places in -- I think, justifiably, she felt that she was not being respected as