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beings, and I jumped at the opportunity to do the HARYOU study, to direct it, and again, with the kind of adolescent optimism which had characterized my life, that this new approach would be embraced, you know, and that we would find the formula for having people recognize that you can't knowingly destroy human beings this way, and that the conscience of my colleagues and concerned human beings would be tapped, and there would be a revolution, a rational revolution to restructure and reorganize the system, to keep it from destroying human beings.

As I grew older, I thought I became less naive, as I saw myself involved in one glorious failure after another.

We should go into those failures, too. But first of all, when was Northside set up?

1946. It's 30 years old this year.

Yes, this year. And how long was the process of inception -- when did your wife and you first....

Side 2

The question you asked me -- could you repeat the question?

Yes. When did your wife and you first perceive the need for the type of clinical approach that you developed at Northside?

Mamie first perceived the need. I guess it was growing during our research on racial preferences and identification in Negro children, when it was clear to both of us, you know, as we looked at our