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Now, how did the role of Livingston Wingate develop? I believe he came in along with Roy.

Roy, yes. He didn't have any major role. He was clearly, and everyone knew it, Adam's satellite. He was Adam's front man on this, and Adam knew Roy's limitations, and we discussed them, and he knew that I would be a stronger front man, in terms of professional stature and reputation.

You're talking now about directing the program.

Oh, sure. Livingston came in because I would not be the front man. And I knew it. Roy knew it. All the other people associated with the operations, both operations, HARYOU and ACT, knew it.

Roy -- I repeat, Adam had no illusions about Roy, and his, you know, abilities or what not. Roy was on Adam's staff in Washington, and was not particularly competent, and Adam got himself some competent counsel, he happened to be white, and promoted Roy up to doing the parallel part of HARYOU.

Let's get this structure into the record, at least briefly, now. Was what happened: two different organizations were created, one of which was your HARYOU, growing out of your pilot work?

Right.

And then this other one was built, and that's the one that--

-- yes, I thought that ACT would have been sufficient to satisfy Adam's realistic political-economic needs, you know.