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black and the white community, and they all asked me to reconsider, you know. Everybody except Ray Jones, again. Ray said, “Kenneth, are you sure that this is what you want to do? Are you sure that the reasons that you believe you want to do this are rational, can be verified?”

I said, “Yes..”

He said, “OK, I'm with you.”

Now, the fact of the matter is, if Ray had not backed me on that, I would not have continued to direct the project to the end, because I told Wagner and all the other people who were asking me to take back Cliff, I said, “I'll take him back as the director, and he can direct the thing, and I'll go back full time to the college.”

“Oh no, no, no, no....”

So co-existence was never an option, in my mind.

By the way, I should tell you that my critics have a very good, I mean, justifiable and accurate basis for their criticism of me, as bullheaded, stubborn, As recently as flying up from New Orleans with a young man, younger man than I am, Chris Edley, who is now director of the United Negro College Fund, and before that was with the Ford Foundation-- you know, a few hours, between New Orleans and New York, and we had a talk. He was talking about my image -- I mean, in a rather diplomatic and friendly way, telling me that I had the image of being very personal about things I believe in. He was recounting the number of fights that I had been in, and my ability to break relationships-- you know.