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change of perspective and policy in the governance of public schools in New York City. I did not offer myself as involved or in any leadership role to one or more of the community groups. In fact, I deliberately stayed away from that, and lent myself therefore to justifiable suspicions as to what was my role. And some of the groups thought that my role was that of apologist for the establishment, in a sort of a double agent or triple agent role. Hell.

And MARC did concentrate a disproportionate amount of its time on the problem of the public schools, the quality, the racial imbalance, and this was dovetailed with my role as Regent. And during the eight years or nine yearsof my stewardship, the problems got worse and worse and worse. The evidence was clear that we had more segregation in our schools each year. The equality of education in the schools, as reflected by reading scores, gets worse and worse. The only thing that increased was my conflicts with Mr. Shanker and his puppets at 110 Livingstone St.

(One of these days, if we talk long enough, I'll think of something positive to say about something I was involved in. I swear to God, I can't think...)

What were the main arguments you got into with Shanker?

Well, it started with Ocean Hill-Brownsville, thing, where Shanker and his union were the most powerful overt supporters of the status quo. Opponents of the people's involvement in seeking to control the quality and the personnel of the schools to which