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Now you're talking about the state AFL-CIO?

Yeah. Yes, near the end -- when he was involved in the struggle in the beginning, he really didn't want any part of it, you know. He wanted things to remain pretty much the way they were. But in the process, -- I keep talking about the importance of process and dialogue -- actually he benefited by the process, because he saw, as the process continued, that this could, he could have the best of both worlds. And it turned out that that's really what happened, until the fiscal crisis caught up with him.

Well, do I recall correctly that part of the struggle involved trying to get more black teachers in these schools? Perhaps teachers too?

How'd you recall that? I thought you were supposed to repress -- you're not supposed to remember that?

Teachers and principles, administrators --

-- and principles, administrators also, of course.

And Shanker --

Shanker and the supervisory association -- there was a time there when there was closed ranks, the teachers, the principles, the assistant superintendents, and the board were indistinguishable in their opposition to any significant change that would result in even the semblance of some kind of increased democracy in our schools.

Aren't you tired of this discussion?