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which had its problems, and finally they settled on Gibson, that the Hundred Black Men weren't particularly enthusiastic about, but certainly they felt was more acceptable than the original.

Also, in their influence on Mr. (Hugh) Carey. Mr. Carey has been very elusive, in terms of promises and commitments to the Hundred Black Men. Maybe it's time for them to re-examine their strategy, their style, their methods. They seem successful enough on the surface. They certainly have visibility. Officials, public officials accept their invitations to speak, not only at ceremonial occasions but in discussion groups; small discussion groups are held here.

Again, this is a personal opinion -- my personal opinion is that they are in danger of stagnating through superficial or apparent successes.

Well, I can't intrude. I joke with Bruce and some of the members of his executive committee occasionally, and they know me well enough to know that I sometimes use humor or joke as a way of communicating some impressions or ideas.

I don't think I've gotten through to them yet, but maybe they need a new kind of thrust or something that will keep them from being contented with past victories and publicity.

But maybe that's the way groups are. Maybe human beings suffer more from success or apparent success than they do from anything else.

Are you also suggesting here, when you talk about apparent success, that it's sort of in danger of becoming a public relations --