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too was constricted, confined by the color of peoples' skin. And gave a lot of rationalizations and double talk. He admitted tremendous admiration....

It was pathetic. Now, my problem, I guess, is that I find American racism particularly nonsensical and idiotic. It would have been to the benefit of the Democratic Party for Ray Jones to have been the chairman of the New York County Democratic Party, and to be the -- I mean, he was the one who really knocked (Carmine) De Sapio out, when De Sapio came with my friend Art (Arthur) Levitt as the alternative to Wagner. Everyone else was conceding that that was the end of Wagner, you know, and that De Sapio was the Boss, etc., -- except Ray. Ray said, “To hell with that, “and Ray convinced Wagner that they could beat De Sapio, and they did. And even after that, there was this stupidity about whether he should be chairman of the county or not.

Well, you know, as Thurgood Marshall said, how much time do you spend trying to not only save people's souls, but to get them to do something that is to their self-interest, if they're being blinded by the color of your skin?

That's the problem, you know. I am more disturbed at the stupidity of American racism, I think, than I am -- I'm not sure. I was going to say, “than I am by the cruelty.” No, I just can't say I'm more disturbed by the stupidity; I am as much disturbed by the stupidity ol American Racism as I am by the cruelty of it.

It is stupid in that it is, in so many ways, self-defeating.