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Yes, I guess we were impotent, and the decision to form the Hundred Black Men, or whatever its name was before it became The Hundred Black Men, was a recognition of our, that we were not as powerful as we felt the blacks needed.

You know, there was Ray Jones, probably the most astute, wise political figure in New York City, who happened to be black.. Well, he had a hell of a time convincing the political decision-makers in the New York County Democratic Party, the state, that Ray Jones should be chairman of the County New York Democratic Party. Instead of Ray Jones, they selected a man by the name of (Edward) Costikyan, you know. Hell, Costikyan didn't begin to have the years and years of experience in the political process, procedure -- but Dostikyan was white. Well, Ben Dyett and I went and talked to the late Governor Lehman. He wasn't governor at the time, but he certainly was an influential person.

Ben and I went to Herbert Lehman's home, and tried to show him, tell him, you know, that it was important that the Democratic party not reject Ray Jones for this political position merely because he was black. We got a beautiful run-around from one of the most liberal members of the Democratic Party, in New York at or anywhere else in the country. I left that conference with the late Governor Lehman feeling sorry for him, really.

I was answering a question of yours, wasn't I?

You were also saying you felt sorry for Governor Lehman when you left the conference.

Yeah, because he-- as liberal as he was, you know, he