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have been involved in, in the past, I guess I'd have been much more selective. But I also might not have been so persistent. Maybe I was a little persistent in order not to stop and think.

This is a very disturbing experience for me. As I said to you maybe in the first interview, not unlike analysis, because you are -- at least, I am required, in spite of myself, to be evaluative about the things that I'm telling you about, you know. I can't just describe them, and not inevitably try to make some sense out of them for myself. And they don't make practical or pragmatic sense. Most of my life has not been practical or pragmatic, and fortunately for me, I've been protected by the fact that I've been in academia. That's a very fortunate thing. And also protected by Mamie, I guess. She has identified in her way with almost everything -- no, not “almost” -- everything of importance in which I've been involved, without regard for the outcome.

A further question here on The Group -- was it supposed to be a secret, as far as the general public went?

Well, it was not a secret, in the sense of, you know, a ritualistic thing, but it was certainly not intended to be public. We had no intentions of a PR operation. We felt that we could be much more effective with -- who was it, Roosevelt, who wanted somebody with “a penchant for anonymity”?

Well, we weren't anonymous, but we certainly weren't going around publicizing the fact that we were meeting at least once a month, to share our thoughts about where we are, and where we're