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account for that. I mean, it might have been just sheer accident, that there were these men in that department who, for some peculiar reason, were mature enough not to respond to me primarily in terms of the fact that I was colored, black or Negro, whatever it was.

I mean, from the very beginning, I felt that I was there as a psychologist, you know, and we argued as psychologists. And when I got involved in Brown, they offered to take over my classes when I had to be away, and they were interested in what was happening in the federal --

No, I don't think that-- at least, I was not sensitive to the slightest clue of their being concerned with using me as a demonstration of their ability to tolerate a black or a maverick.

In fact, one of the things that interests me about that group is that they had their share of mavericks, without regard to color. For example, this Professor Hertzman that I told you about -- he never got beyond associate professor level, because he was involved in the Rapp - Coudert thing, you know, and he refused to assume the “mea culpa” role.

These were the best collection of mature human beings that I have had the privilege of being associated with. And it was fortunate that I was in that department. I spent a year at Queens College, and found that absolutely intolerable, because there was a bunch of insecure, striving, competitive, hostile human beings -- again, beyond color. I was the only black in that department, and at the end of that year, I had to leave and come back to City. I couldn't take any more of the Queens College thing.