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You actually testified down there?

Yes. I got up on the stand. Yeah. But he had been on the stand, you understand. He must have told this in detail. (Kenneth Clark)

Yes. What was the main thrust of your testimony ?

They didn't ask me very much, to tell you the truth. I was there ostensibly to help refute (Henry E.) Garrett's testimony, and Garrett as you know had testified about the inferiority of black children. And Garrett had been my sponsor at Columbia (University) so it was felt that, because I was a student of his, and because I had some authority at this time about children, that I could help to refute his testimony.

Let's see, you've mentioned Columbia University, which is where you got your PhD. Let's flash back a little into that. When did you decide to go to Columbia?

Well, by this time, by the time we were married, we knew what we were going to do. We had planned it, and we were both going to go to Columbia because we were both going to live in New York. That was one critical decision that had been made. And we were both going to go to school in New York.

By the way, just for the record, when were you married?

In April 14, 1938.