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in terms of what those Superintendents thought that they wanted us to do, as an agency for the children. And it was a five year study that we finally made, as to whether group therapy with young children was effective. We did it in very close cooperation with the schools. It really tied us in with the schools. It solidified our relationships with the schools. And they stayed with us that whole time, and indeed, it's been only recently that we just don't have the kind of contact and relationships with the superintendents that we used to have. But John Theobold was responsible for cementings our relationships with the schools, as well as saving us in the crisis.

There was one question in your personal history, earlier -- after you received your PhD, did you have any trouble trying to get a job? One that you thought you were qualified for?

Well, I had trouble with that, yes. I had to take what I could get at the time. I was really over-qualified for most things I was trying to get into. In those days, people were hiring people without PhD's and I had a PhD. So, in that sense, I was over-qualified, and when I took the job at the American Public Health Association, I took it only because it was the best possible thing that had come along for me. There were opportunities, but this seemed at the time to be the best possible thing to do.

But there was no difficulty in finding jobs. It was a difficulty to find something that you were really satisfied with.

Did you get any feeling that, as a black PhD, that there was a color barrier?