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Definitely. Definitely. I mean, nobody really wanted a black PhD in those days. They really didn't. Really didn't.

When this did occur, did it come as a surprise to you or had you anticipated it?

I anticipated that. No, I must say I anticipated that. In fact, I was surprised when the American Public Health Association hired me, because at the time, it was very unusual, and a woman was head of this unit that I was in, the research unit. She was white and a woman and a PhD, but she hired me. That was a surprise to me. I thought I'd probably finally have to work at the New York Urban League.

Dr. Clark, in setting up Northwide, you set up a lot of different kinds of services. Are there any particular aspects that have given you more satisfaction than others, that you look back on now with particular satisfaction, or even look forward to, that offer special satisfaction to you personally?

Let me -- the aspects of it -- I think the aspect of the whole program that's most satisfying is to meet the clients later, and know that they made a good adjustment. That's the most satisfying part of the whole thing. Then you really feel, you know, it's been worth it. That's really the most satisfying aspect. And you see some of the children who are grown up and who have really done very well, in that sense, you know. Have families of their own, and you're beginning to see the second generation now.