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documentary. We're interested in getting to television, to do things the way television does.” Now it became clear as they moved -- now I disagree with them. I thought there were a number of very wonderful documentary film makers who could be supported and could do things, but he kept saying, “Look at the figures. The figures show that the number of people you want to reach, you reach millions or you're going to reach a few hundred thousand. That's the difference. We're interested in reaching millions.” All right, so that's the way they were going to go. But it became clearer other than that.

The experience we had -- and I think we told you about it, I don't know if we put it in. Did we put it in, about the film? About “I Am Somebody?” We may have. But that's an example. They didn't want certain people on it because it had to fit the AFL-CIO's mold. Once you start fitting that mold you're going to pull punches and you can't do what can be done. You're always looking behind you to see what do the guys at the top want, how do you satisfy them. Once you start that way you're going to be in trouble.

I have a theory that Bread and Roses is a direct legacy of the popular front, and that's one of the reasons why it might never happen again in the same way.

It's a legacy of the popular front in a certain sense, because of the way it brings art and music and literature to the workers in an organized way, and you called on people who were thinking that way, and you called on people who were thinking that way; they wanted to do something right. They had a sympathy --

[END TAPE THREE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE THREE, SIDE TWO]

You couldn't do it again because there's not a generation of people in the labor movement or even -- actually it probably exists more, probably, in the art world now -- who would think it was vital to this kind of thing.

Important to do it, that's right. At the very best you would probably get the singers to do it, and to write lyrics about an event. But someone ought to write a good song about the P9 Strike. Someone ought to -- probably someone has, that we don't know about. But you see each event ought to produce its own shtick that could be used, but the workers who are involved in it should know about it. They should be celebrated.

This actually raises sort of a whole other point, which I'm not sure we're prepared to get in to now. That whole relationship is different. I