Session: 123456789101112131415161718192021222324         Page 67686970717273747576777879808182838485868788899091 of 592

So they became corroborative witnesses. Now most of the stuff was leaked to the press. See, then later, they had an open hearing where the testimony was given. This was confined to the city colleges only. Then there was concern about people at the private colleges, what's going on there. There was concern about all kind of fallouts, then you began to talk to lawyers about what's happening here or what do you do. And it became clear that it was not merely a hearing, that they said that they were going to take action, and they began to call in people individually. You were called in to -- it had to be a formal kind of thing, in that sense, there had to be a member of the committee, the legislative committee, had to be present, and an attorney, and the decision was to take the Fifth Amendment.

Were you personally called?

Yes, everybody was called.

So what happened to you when you were called?

You were called, you were asked if these statements were true, and you'd deny, you'd refuse to answer. They said, “Do you know that if you refuse to answer this could be a question of your position at the college?” And then the long procedure began of trials against people. They suspended you, and then they had to have some kind of formal proceeding. Now, what was interesting about this is that my brother Phil was able to get statements in support of him from very distinguished people--Allan Nevins, Nelson P. Mead, the head of the History Department, distinguished historians, who issued statements attesting to his scholarship, that's all, and hat he was a valuable faculty member and a good teacher, and students did that, too. There were student committees formed in support of teachers whom they had, and so there was that kind of defense thing to try to support the teachers. But you had a very strong feeling that this would not stand up because you were up against the legislature, the press, the administration of the college, everybody was going, you know. It became a question of a matter of time before the thing would unload on you.

It was at that time that Morris Schappes decided that he would be the test case, and he admitted that he was a communist, and said that he was the only member of the Communist Party. He was tried.

And?

And he was convicted of perjury and he went to jail. I remember that there was a committee formed, The Friends of the