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determined to stick by his guns and do it the way he wanted to. And it's rather extraordinary when you think of it, that despite those circumstances, Matthews remained managing editor for 6 or 7 years. And to a lesser degree, this kind of tension has existed in a lot of relations there during Luce's life. [pause] And it's amazing how different the managing editors were one from the other. When--you're asking about the 1960s--when Otto Fuerbringer took over--this was once removed from Matthews--Otto was a no-nonsense, slightly prescient[?], very news-oriented man, with only slight interest in the kind of things that would have interested Matthews: back-of-the-book, mainly. Otto was really a front-of-the-book editor.

News versus arts and--

News--that's right.

--features and art.

Absolutely. And here he did the job for eight years, and then who succeeds him but Henry Grunwald--strange how many German names we seem to have here: Gottfried, Fuerbringer, Grunwald. Grunwald is again the reverse: he is intellectual, literary, loves the opera more than most anything else. Otto is tall, slim, muscular, upright. Grunwald looks like a pear on two stumpy legs [laughter]. With all these--I guess, probably, the fact that the characters were very different was probably very good for the