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overthrow?

Well, no. It had nothing to do with his overthrow, but I think I did about twenty years of work on the IAPA. And I thought to myself, well, the time has come to get out.

But I mean, you didn't go back to Chile under Pinochet.

Oh, only with Donovan. Yeah, we did see Pinochet with Donovan.

You mean on this trip that you described earlier.

Yes, and-

Why don't you describe that meeting.

Well, of course first he didn't want to see us. And then he did. We had to wait quite a long time. And I think the reason we had to wait quite a long time was he decided that he would show us that he was really a civilian leader, because instead of this man in full uniform receiving us, here was this gentleman in gray slacks and a tweed jacket [laughs] receiving us. And of course, his talk was what you can predict. “Well, things are very difficult. In Latin American countries you can't always