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representation in all of this. You make speeches everywhere--

In what you were doing?

What I was doing--even Shepley--but I did an awful lot of speeches. You know, the Texas people would have a meeting. I'd have to to go that. I'd have to go to sales meetings and make a speech on behalf of the company. I'd have to speak at advertisers meetings. Then, as you get to be known more and more, you have to go to more and more functions.

You didn't really answer the question. How did you and Shepley get on behind closed doors?

Oh. Oh, we got on pretty well. I think he felt that I was holding somewhat of a leash on him. I think he would have liked to have been freer of it to operate than he was. But, by an large, it worked pretty well. To some extent, people tried to play Shepley against me, but it wasn't very effective.

And where did Donovan fit in, again? In other words, how often did the three of you, or the two of you in various combinations, talk and meet and discuss things?

Donovan, it seems to me, that I'd see him probably every day! Sometimes I'd just walk into his office just to chat about nothing. I did it more than he, because he is not a man full of