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I have a Saturday morning lunch with four or five people through the year -- the same people. It's just very enjoyable to spend an hour or two. And she told Ed, who then conveyed it to me, that after I left Murray said to her and the people who were there (it's a very friendly cheese store): “I really like Ed Koch, and you know why? He's been shopping here for 20 years, and you know, he still buys the same cheese.” What he was saying really was that now that I can afford to buy better cheese, I'm still buying the same cheese. I haven't changed in my ways. And I don't think I have, notwithstanding what he considers to be a huge elevation in social position, becoming a member of Congress. It was a rather complimentary thing, and in a way I hope it's one of my major assets: that I'm never taken with myself. And Ken Guiletta in calling me one of the “good guys” in this week's voice -- he has a list of ten “good guys” and I'm one of them -- says (to paraphrase): “Being a member of Congress really isn't very much, but Ed Koch makes more of that job than others are able to do.” He's talking about making it more effective And then he says, “But he doesn't make more of himself.” There's a certain human quality -- is really what he was conveying. He says it better than I'm able to say it about myself.

So in any event, van den Heuvel: van den Heuvel lacks all these qualities. Van den Heuvel you can sum up in a little story that Carter Burden tells. I don't think he was the originator of that story but he told it at a dinner for Carter Burden, raising money for Carter Burden -- that's coals to Newcastle -- but raising money for Carter in one of his city councilmanic races.