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I'm really the only one that you could endorse.” I said, “Bill, I'm not getting involved in that.” And he said, “Now, look, Ed, just assume at the end of that race there are only two people left -- me and Gene Nickerson.” I said, “Bill, don't press me.” He said, “But, Ed, if you have to make that choice, what would you do?” I said, “Okay, if you press me -- Nickerson.” (laughs)

Let's identify Nickerson further. He was county executive of Nassau.

Correct, Eugene Nickerson.

Now, do I recall correctly, that van den Heuvel generally tried to be associated with the reformers?

Oh, yes. There's no question that he would say that his identification was with the reformers.

Do I also recall correctly that he came out being the campaign manager or one of the campaign managers of Arthur Levitt in the primary against Wagner?

Yes, that's in 1961. And he's now one of the campaign managers for Carter in the Presidential race, which indicates to me that that's a Kennedy operation, because I believe that Ted Kennedy is going to be the candidate at the convention, and I advised Kennedy that I would be for him.