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when they had hearings before the appropriate sub-committee that they had 14 experts against banning the trap and two experts so-called for banning the trap. And who were the two? Well, one is some television starlet, Mary Tyler Moore -- she knows from shit, as they said, about animals except that it's a big thing with an emotional pitch -- and they had Cleveland Amory, who probably does know a lot.

So I said, “Listen, you're not going to change my mind on this. I don't happen to be one of those that's against hunting and against trapping.” He said, “But this is the first step.” I said, “You're talking to me like the National Rifle Association talks to me. If I say to them there should be proficiency tests; or if I say to them there should be regulation on who can own a rifle; I'm not opposed to having rifles, but if you're a lunatic you shouldn't be able to have a rifle; if you're an adolescent, if you're a drug addict, if you're an ex-convict.” And I say to them, “Don't you think we can set those kinds of standards?’ And they say, ‘No, no, no, that't the first step.”’ I said, “And what you're telling me. ‘No, no, no, this is the first step. Outlaw the steel trap and down the road we'll outlaw all trapping.”' I said, “I can't work that way. I can't sponsor legislation on the basis that it's the first step toward eliminating everything. I just don't work that way.”

Well, he was very upset and he came on very tough. And I said, “Listen, Henry, you have an economic interest. You are