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but obviously it's not a politically favorable position to have, but I debated with him. And they liked me. They liked that fact and plus the fact I have a pretty good style. It's a different style. It's a style that I only employ with Martin Abend. By that I mean this: he is a very outrageous guy in his debating style. It's filled with histrionics; it's filled with club-him-to-death type of rhetoric. It's crazy to listen to him. And he's a screamer. And the people who have been debating with him are screamers, like Victor Riesel. Victor Riesel screams as loud as he can, and they both come out looking ridiculous except Abend comes out better. So I decided that the way you debate with Abend is almost monotone. That's not my normal style. But I don't even look at him. I get the issue, I look at the camera, very flat kind of statements -- but in counterpoint to Abend, who's a screamer, and me very low-keyed and simple in exposition, it comes out brilliant; I must say that. That's what people have said to me, and I believe it. It's different than my normal style, which is...

This must come as a surprise for some of the people that know you.

Right, right. The fact of the matter is: the people who are very supportive of liberal positions -- and I always obviously espouse the liberal position, not only because I believe in reasonable, rational liberal rhetoric, but because