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was jammed -- I mean hundreds of people were at this funeral parlor. This is not the service. This is where the body is on view for 24 or 48 hours and people are there all night long. They've got chairs and you just sit there right in front of the casket, and Carmine stands in front of the casket, and people come and look at the body and then they shake hands with him. When I entered the premises people began to whisper: “That's Koch; that's Koch.” And when I entered the chapel (it's not really a chapel) there were hundreds of people sitting and Carmine is standing. He didn't see me, and I got in line like everybody else and viewed the body, and then as I approached Carmine -- he was standing there with his wife and with his daughter -- he suddenly became aware of me. And it was rather moving. Again, I might be romanticizing, but I think it was. He said, “I really appreciate your coming in,” and then he turned to his wife: “This is Mr. Koch.” I can't remember his wife's first name. I knew his daughter. And we shook hands, and I said, “I'm really so sorry, Carmine.” It was a nice moment frankly.

I must say that at the Tammany Hall dinner, which took place about a month ago here in New York City, Carmine was there, too. Carmine goes to all those dinners; he's a very popular man notwithstanding the fact that he's been to jail and everything else -- he's a very popular man. And as he's walking through the dinner -- I think it was at the Americana -- he approaches without knowing it my table. And everybody stands, myself