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delegates to the national convention. I don't think we're going to be able to, but I know that's why he's called me, and I'm going to go. And I have a very good relationship with him. I happen to like him; he's a very straightforward guy vis-a-vis me. Anyway he was Carmine's very close friend and still is. That's number one.

The second is that Carmine put into power many people over the years that he was in office -- and I think he went into office in 1944 or maybe 1941; it was in that area. He has a whole history which I'm not even familiar with, how they deprived him of becoming district leader, how he had to fight and how he was the insurgent; it's an interesting situation. He's always on the political right. They always saw him as something special. I think it was basically because he was viewed as a very intelligent leader of the proletariat. He was an earthy guy. I can give you some background about Norman Redlich, who was a figure here in New York City. He was counsel to the Warren Commission and very active in New York University, and he had a very close relationship to Carmine. We can go into that. So Carmine had these friends in high positions, either in government where he had appointed them -- judges whom he had appointed --, others whom he had helped; and they never forgot it. Loyalty is a very important ingredient in politics.

The third, I suppose, is that (and it's an extension of the one I just mentioned) the regulars have dominated New York