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counsel and said, “I'm told that you're interested in my advice, and I want to tell you now that if you appoint Dick Kuh, you ensure a primary.” If you appoint Scoppetta, I don't believe that the reformers will run against him.” He wasn't a reformer; he was sort of nothing in this political area. I'd never heard his name in a political context. I know Nick Scoppetta. As a matter of fact, I was a friend of his -- not a close one, but a friend -- and he was a very close friend of my former law partner, Allen Schwartz. So he took this advice. I said, “You're ensuring a primary with Kuh. You're avoiding one with Scoppetta.”

Well, what I didn't know at that time was they wanted a primary; and they wanted a primary because what could be better than having the efforts of the reform movement and the regulars and all the vital juices in the borough of Manhattan directing itself to a primary involving the district attorney? They don't then get involved in the gubernatorial race. Do you follow? There's a limit to how much energy you have, and so we wouldn't be able to apply it in the same degree to ousting Malcolm Wilson. It was pure genius on their part. It became clear subsequently, because he did appoint Dick Kuh, and our energies did go into that. I'm happy to say with respect to the gubernatorial, I did not support the reform movement's candidate, who was Howard Samuels. I supported Hugh Carey. I had quite a close relationship politically with Hugh Carey because I was the first