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about, and they bring practical business, administrative ideas that weren't always even heard of by the doctors. Some of the men, like Frank Neely, were very useful in suggesting better administative procedures. On the whole, when the laymen have been articulate, they've been very effective; but mostly the laymen haven't known enough about medicine to say very much, to speak up.

Sort of over-awed by medical knowledge.

Yes, but just the same, there are a few laymen that have had a lot of influence on the Councils, especially Mike Gorman recently and Florence has had influence and I, certainly, have had some influence even on the Councils, at times, but always with great difficulty because the doctors are always hostile to ideas from laymen. But I've had friends on the Councils, doctors, who would then espouse ideas that I gave to them privately, because they were simple and, you know, really fool-proof, nothing complicated at all, really.

In order to keep in touch with Senator Thye and Senator Bridges, Florence and I invited them and their wives to dine while I was in Washington. Mrs. Thye was charming and Mrs. Bridges was also very pleasant. We invited Paul White, hoping he would give them a good fight-talk on what the progress was in heart research; however, he was in a strange mood and he