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I think so, too, but they didn't think so; at least, they just resented any planning or any direction. And I think Laird really did this in order to make a little trouble, and he wasn't beaten down as he should have been by Fogarty, you know. It's fantastic!

Now, after the conferees had agreed finally to 738 million, this was substantially larger than what the President had put in his budget, which I think was 675 million. In other words, it was an increase of the figure in the President's budget, and the President wasn't particularly pleased about this. However, in July of '61, I asked for an appointment to see him, and I went around to the White House one noon and waited for the President about an hour.

Finally, somebody came and said he couldn't see me and would I mind coming back around 3:30. I returned at 3:30 and was led over to the Oval Room in the White House. The President came in a very few minutes and seemed to have been taking a rest. It was a lovely, clear day, with marvelous views of the monuments out of the windows and beautiful grass along with south side of the White House made the scene very picturesque. The Oval Room had been refurbished and was looking very much prettier than it had during the Truman Administration. I hadn't seen it during the Eisenhower Administration.

The President came in quickly and we started talking about the national cultural center. I urged him to have a review of what the potential fund raising for it would really be and