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Health Service, and Mike Gorman suspects he wants to do this because if it became a bureau it wouldn't have an advisory council to whom he would have to listen or have to accent any news ideas from for the administration of new funds which may be available as a result of pending legislation, about which I'll talk later.

Now, I admit that it's very irritating to have advisers or councils, but, on the other hand, it's not as irritating as to have people in state mental hospitals that could be gotten out that aren't being gotten out because the people that administer the funds re particularly imaginative or foresighted.

I like him as a human being. He's a very nice human being. He's just not anybody who wants to do new things. Did you find him to be?

The administration is his specialty.

The administration is his specialty, but administration of what is and not what ought to be, it seems to me. Do you think this is unfair?

I think that is a fair estimate, really. I knew him in a personal way, his family and so forth. . .

He has an agreeable manner, don't you think so?

Yes.