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The plan has paid back these funds out of its surpluses, or at least it paid it back to the Lasker Foundation and I'm sure it paid it to the others.

HIP has been the object of vicious attacks from the County Medical Society's local groups. Dr. Baer and David Hyman have been incredibly industrious and courageous in the development of the plan; they defended it against the attacks of the medical societies who loathe it because it has lay representation on its board, among other reasons.

The plan has done a splendid and unique service to hundreds of thousands of people. I'm sure it has given courage to people in other parts of the country to start group voluntary plans, but it has not covered the nation as the nation needs to be covered with medical care of a high quality. It's really still a local plan and the truth is that the only solution to getting medical care to everybody who really needs it is to have a national health insurance under social security under which everybody would pay as they pay for unemployment insurance.

You say the doctors locally fought it tooth and claw. Their arguments, are they similar...

The arguments were that, really, it was socialistic, even communistic, that it would lead toward socialized medicine. They hate the idea of having any fixed scale of fees, and they're just generally reactionary.