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for a taxi from the airport to his home and, you know, all kinds of small but annoying things.

However, the hearing, I think, was ruined as far as the tobacco industry went, because we persuaded Humphrey and Marvella Bayh [Mrs. Birch Bayh] to ask to testify, and they testified, saying how much was needed and how many patients there were, and that, you know -- they brought the human and patient aspect of it to the fore, which was of course not at all the intention of Fountain or his committee, and you had the feeling that the whole effort on Fountain's part was master-minded by the tobacco industry lobby and some public relations people working for them.

If you had not been able to refute this effort of the Fountain committee, what kind of results --?

Well, we would have had even worse pieces of journalism in the newspapers than we had. These other witnesses were so dramatic that it distracted the attention of the press, and instead of just writing the complaints of the people who were opposed to something or other, that either the Cancer Society or the NCI had done of some really minor nature, the committee heard what other people thought . It really diffused -- although there was some very bad publicity about this business of the money that, you know, some small amounts of money for travel expenses, you know, and it was blown into something like that.

That makes the headlines, doesn't it?

That makes the headlines. They defused this by having