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witnesses who were really concerned for themselves and for other people.

And who were headliners in their own right.

Yes. But it still made a great deal of trouble with the appropriations, and a man called Obey [Congressman David R. Obey] of Wisconsin, is a Congressman on the Sub-Committee for Appropriations for HEW, and he is really maniacal on the subject of carcinogeus in the atmosphere and how the NCI hasn't done enough about it. Well, NCI has large contracts, trying to find what the carcinogeus are, but they cannot shut down industries or refinance industries that make these carcinogeus because they're not -- it's not a mandatory, it's not a regulatory agency. But he's absolutely kind of crazy on the subject.

On pollution in the air?

Yes. And that the Cancer Institute hasn't spent its money properly and oh, he's gone on and on and on, and as the House Committee is very light intellectually as far as any medical matters go, they have been confused and upset by this, and we've had a time I went to the House and Senate Appropriations conference. It was supposed to be an open conference. Well, it was in such a small room that about twelve people from the public came in, including me and Jane MacDonough and Deeda Blair [Mrs. William M.], and maybe ten others, maybe nine others, and the rest was all just Senators, Congressmen and their aides.

And we sat there through their markup, and we saw the, really, frivolity of the House side's attempt to reduce the Senate's wish