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research facilities, and construction of community health centers under the National Mental Health Institute.

Dr. Shannon, either because he himself was against clinical research or feared that it would get the Institutes into argument or trouble, or because he was afraid that the pharmaceutical industry was really opposed to clinical research on a scale because it sale of some of their most -- might outdate some of their favorite products -- was totally against clinical trials on a scale.

Do you think this was a point of view acquired at Squibbs?

I don't know whether he got this point of view from Squibbs. I think it was partly that he was very supercilious basic research he realized that if you talked about basic research, very few people could judge whether you were making any progress or not, whereas if you were interested in clinical research, either the clinical research succeeded or it didn't, and it was a way of getting your paper marked It would be clear whether you were failing or succeeding much more rapidly.

In any case, he was terribly opposed to ever finding out whether any of the research that was being done would benefit the people of the United States, who were paying the bill for research.

Did you have honest to goodness discussions with him on this subject? Did you try to dissuade him from his point of view?