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I never confronted him with this face to face and said, “Why are you against this?” would just reply, “If I had ever said anything like that, “Well, we just don't know the basic cause, until we know the basic cause we can't do any clinical research.” I mean, this is what he'd say on cancer, heart or anything like that.

Well, we finally did, in spite of everything, through setting directions written into Senate reports, get the funds appropriated, and he finally had to, After four years of resisting, did have to start clinical trials with 11 pids lowering drugs fat-lowering drugs, in people who had already had one heart attack, to see whether or not the lowering of 11 pids on the blood -- in other words, cholesterol and other 11 pids -- would prevent the onset of second attacks, and whether they would prevent deaths But with the exception of this, and a few clinical trials under the Cancer Institutes' aegis, he had been quite successful in fending off any clinical trials. There were no big clinical trials in drugs for arthritis, for instance, and generally all of the Institutes have spent a very tiny amount of money in the field of whether or not the work was paying off.

You felt strongly during his whole term of office that there was opposition.

Yes. Well, it suddenly appeared that Mr. Cohn, who was not