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He, I think, very much resented my taking the view that the Sixth Amendment was awfully important too, and that we (newspapers), as I say, were not always necessarily one hundred percent right.

I've had this kind of disagreement with other people on the Times, like Jimmy Goodale, our general counsel, who feels just as strongly as Rosenthal does on this subject, and - but I'm very good friends with Goodale. But Rosenthal kind of personalized it, I think, and this came out very bitterly at a luncheon one day, which I may have spoken about in a previous session. And we really are getting off the subject, but as long as you asked me the question -

I agreed to serve on a task force, to consider the advisability of a news council, national news council, under the auspices of the Twentieth Century Fund, and I cleared this with Punch Sulzberger. I told him that I'd been asked to do this. I was interested in the subject, because I had always felt that - it would be very desirable for the public to have some kind of access to newspapers, other than the access that newspapers themselves were willing to give the public. That was really the issue. It was the idea of getting different views. A little bit of that was in the concept of the Op-Ed page, as a matter of fact, quite a bit of it.

So I served with the publisher's full knowledge and agreement on the task force that ended up with a recommendation to create a news council. And when we were just about finished with our deliberations, this subject came up at lunch one day, and Rosenthal - or we had already issued the report, I can't remember now - and Rosenthal, at lunch, virtually