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But the story is that when Julius came back to the New York Times, his first day back to report for work again, he walked into his old office and he found that it was occupied by his cousin-in-law, Arthur Hays Sulzberger, who was already installed there.

I have heard that.

Have you ever heard of it?

I have heard it.

Oh, you have heard it.

But I'm not sure it's documented anywhere.

I certainly couldn't document it, but I certainly have heard that story more than once. And Julius in a fury ordered Arthur out of the office, out of that office. That was his, Julius's, office, which had been his three years or four years earlier. So although Julius and Iphigene were very good friends the rest of their lives, the rest of his life, because he died long before she did, Arthur and Julius, I think, were civil to each other, but I don't think were very close friends, especially after Arthur became the publisher, after Adolph Ochs' death, which was in '35.

But Julius, I have to say, was always a -- after my father's death in '31, I was 18 and my brother was 21, but Julius as executor of my father's will, did much more than serve in that