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publisher. I went to see Punch about this specific rumor. I felt I should ask him about this. This was several weeks earlier than the conversation that I opened this account with [March 25]. I was absolutely assured by Punch in no uncertain terms that there was no such thing contemplated by him, that there was no truth in this rumor.

So that's a little bit of the background.

Just so I have the facts straight, you were scheduled to retire a year and a half from the time that you actually were asked to retire, is that right?

I was scheduled -- when I hit sixty-five was the time, sixty five years old in '78. Punch and I had -- as I thought I had indicated, Punch and I had had occasional -- within the last year, maybe within the last six months -- occasional conversations about my prospective retirement and who would be my successor. But it was all done, the conversations, entirely in the context of this was still more than two years off.

So in your mind, why would he want you to retire early? And what was your thinking when you had this conversation with him about why he would want you to retire early? What were his reasons? Once it became clear to you that he wanted to name Frankel as your successor.

Oh, now you're talking about just now, this date in March that I had mentioned.

Yes. At that moment in March, what was your thinking about why he would want you to retire early?