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not sure, and certainly I thought so at the time, that Sulzer wasn't the one who reported this conversation with Murphy. Sulzer was a very peculiar man. He had, I think, very substantial virtues, but he also had not been above playing a very dirty political game, I take it, from time to time. He was not a man of his word. He was untrustworthy in that sense to the politicians and probably to other people too.

He had apparently some kind of enlightenment deep in his heart about the desirability of a Governor being completely free and he had some social enlightenment. That is, he had begun to accept the idea that the Government should pay some attention to the poor people and to the problems of their lives and that there was room and reason for tenement house legislation. He wasn't, I would say, enthusiastic over factory legislation. It hadn't dawned on him. But he was not averse to it; he didn't oppose it greatly.

I suppose somebody has written up Sulzer as a human being. I later came to see him more. I don't know where he lived at that time. I wasn't married until 1913, but when I was we had a house in Washington Place. He either was living there then, or came to live there soon after, and settled very nearly opposite to us. So I used to see him on the street and used to speak to him. Without ever going