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know about him. He could pick you up and toss it back to you just like that, which I always enjoyed. I'm given to that kind of thing myself and I always feel embarrassed when I make a sally towards somebody who can't think of anything to throw back at me. It isn't polite to rib them if they don't rib you. Ickes never left any doubt in anybody's mind that he could give as good as he took. So he had certain jolly qualities that were pleasant to know. He was also very sarcastic and capable of very biting remarks.

On this first occasion I had no impression of him except that he was a capable man. I didn't know anything about him and I had to look him up, by which I mean that I questioned people from the Chicago area, whom I did know, about, “What is he like? What's he famous for?” and so forth.

At that time I had a sense that this change was really something important that was happening, not just a change a from a Republican to a Democratic organization. The people at this meeting were really quite a selection, although some of them were not very important selections. They had not been selected, for a piece of teamwork. They had been selected, some of them, for purely political reasons. Swanson, for instance, of the Navy, was a very wise political selection, but he didn't have anything to do