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Anyhow, we stared there until six o'clock, and we talked and we argued. I explained the whole theory of union existence. I went back into the history, which he apparently didn't know, of the early organization of unions, why they occurred, what the abuses had been, what the industrial revolution had done to the division of labor, and to the expansion of our industrial life, the divorce of the worker from any possible moral responsibility or concern of the employer's. If there was such a concern on the part of the employer in any big mass production industry, it could hardly be evoked, because even if he had the concern he still wouldn't know what was going on. It was all too cut and dried. Here were these great enterprises making a great deal of money. Those who owned the new machinery that had been invented, the new types of operations, the applications of power that had been invented and put into operation in the beginnings of the industrial revolution, were in a position to turn the others out on the street and lot them starve. I took him all through the period of the starvation riots in England and Scotland and on the Continent, mostly in England, though, because I knew more about it and it was more like our own. I took him all through that.