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opportunity to say all kinds of things about you and about the union, Don't you think you ought to get rid of him? You know these fellows get very powerful. You don't know what he does.”

Lewis drew himself up and he said, “Believe me, Madame Secretary, John L. Lewis will control this man, and all the other employees of the C.I.O. I know exactly how to use him. I know exactly where to use him. I know exactly how to direct him and how to catch up on him, and know exactly what he is, what's more--and he is useful to me. And so long as he is useful to me, I will keep him because he is useful to me and because I can check him at any moment. At any moment, I can check him and I can ruin him, and that's what shall do if he ever gets out of hand. But I assure you, John L. Lewis can control this man and know what he's about.”

“Well, that ended that, although I remember saying, “Well, beware,” and so forth. I raised the question with him on at least two or three other occasions.

How long did pressman stay with Lewis?

Oh, a long time, He even went over into Philip Murray's organization after Murray took it over. Murray had Pressman with him. I don't know how many years it was, but it was a considerable time. I'm not sure when it was, but Murray took him over, and I had the same conversation with